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| 12th September 2007 This project is on hold at the moment, because of pressure of circumstances. [RP]
Click here for Chunk 3 The chunk is DONE! Thank you everyone! The next chunk will appear in September, when everyone gets back from holidays, and I will email people and post notices as before. [RP] 19th July 2007 Thank you JMB for all your very useful comments! Only one item remains, which I have attempted again but would welcome any further comments on as it still isn't quite right. [RP]
18th July 2007 Only 6 sections left to check and lock! [RP]
Can people let me know what you think on these, so we can close them?
We're more than halfway through the review phase, and going good! 46 still to check. (I'll be offline on Sunday 15th as usual, but will deal with emails and issues on Monday. [RP] 14th July 2007 A good chunk of proofing is done, but still plenty to do. Look for the verbs, check against the German, and add notes. Checking is easier than writing from nothing! [RP] 13th July 2007 Thanks to JMB for getting us underway with reviewing. Go for it, chaps! Check the verb tenses especially. Issues to resolve so far:
Review: Please add your initials (any chars) using the box and button, and hit refresh (until that is saved, you won't be able to mark any section as done). Then look at sections that you did NOT do. If you think that they are OK, hit the button 'lock'. This will stamp it with your initials and remove the edit button and leave an 'unlock' button instead. It's all reversible so have a go.
12th July 2007 All attempted! Well done! And special thanks to JMB this time. I'll enable the reviewing buttons and post again here when I have done so -- I've got a system for cross-checking. [RP]
Click here for Chunk 1. If anyone needs to email me or wants to send me their email address so I can tell them when further chunks become available, use this form. | ||||
| 101 | Erzeugt würden daselbst auch Datteln und Äpfel und noch allerlei anderes Obst; auch Fische und Geflügel, sowohl Feld- als Sumpf- | fieri (nasci) inibi et palmas ac mala, etalia quoque diversi generis poma, nec non pisces, et aves silvestres ac palustres: | (he said) that in that place grew both date palms and apples, and also other fruits of diverse sorts, as well as fish, and both woodland and marsh birds.
In that place grew both date palms and apples, and also other fruits of diverse sorts, as well as fish, and both woodland and marsh birds. [CPJ]
Yes, this is all part of the same sentence, and 'dicit' must be understood. Thus any infinitive (e.g. esse) should be rendered something like 'ut'+indicative, (e.g."(he said) that he is"). [RP]
I do not think that the Latin can be translated accurately for those verbs. Any of them got the sense correctly. Maybe a simple 'there are' might do the work.[JMB] I agree. Perhaps CPJ had the right of it. The German is 'were produced'. I'll wrap this one up with a note in the final edit. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 07:37:39 AM | |
| 102 | Es habe dasselbe [Land] auch wasserlose und unfruchtbare Gegenden, [nämlich] die arabischen; und gegenüber dem Araberlande gebirgige und fruchtbare, | esse autem arabicas ejus partes aqua et fructibus carentes, oppositas vero terrae Arabum montuosas et fructiferas; | (he said) that on the contrary the Arabic parts of this [land] are lacking water and fruits, however the [parts] opposed to the land of the Arabs are mountainous and fruitful.[JMB] That is to say, that towards Syria is a desert, but towards Persia (the ancient Elam) the land is rich but not a river plain.[JMB] Locked by [RP] on 12th July 2007 10:52:37 AM | |
| 103 | in Babelon aber sei eine ungeheure Masse fremden Volkes angesiedelt gewesen, im Lande der Chaldäer, und sie lebten in Ungebundenheit wie die vernunftlosen Tiere und das wilde Vieh. | et Babelone magnam multitudinem hominum alienigenarum in Chaldaeorum regione habitare, eosque brutorum ac ferarum more luxuriose (luxuria) vivere. | and in Babylon a great number of strangers live in the region of the Chaldaeans, and they live in the decadent manner of brutes and savagers.
... and that Babylon, in the region of the Chaldeans, is inhabited by a great multitude of men of different origins, and that they live with the luxuriant (/lascivious) habits of the irrational (brutorum) and the savage (ferarum) [JMB] habitare is pres indicative. I think that the magnam multitudinem is the subject of the reported speech (ut + accusative + infinitive -> nominative + indicative in translation) How about: "and in Babylon a great number of strangers live in the region of the Chaldaeans, and they live in the decadent manner of brutes and savagers." ? [RP] I agree, against my normal usage I was not very literal here.[JMB] Great! Changed. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 07:33:13 AM | |
| 104 | Und im ersten Jahre sei erschienen aus dem Roten Meere eben dort inmitten des Gebietes der Babylonier ein furchtbares Untier, dessen Name Oan heiße; | Primo autem anno e mari rubro ibi quidem intra fines Babeloniorum (s. babelonicos) terribilem quandam apparuisse feram, cui nomen vocetur Oan; | However there, in the first year there appeared out of the Red Sea in the middle of the lands of the Babylonians a certain terrible beast, whose name was Oannes; [RP]
'quandam' a certain terrible beast... [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 13th July 2007 06:24:15 AM | |
| 105 | wie denn auch Apol | quemadmodum et Apolodorus in volumine (historia) enarrat: (quippe) quod totum ejus corpus piscis (Gen. sc. corpus) fuisse, et infra piscis caput aliud caput juxta illud accommodatum (adaptatum), | (Apolodorus also relates the same in his book); that his body was that of a fish, and under the head of the fish was joined on another head, [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 12th July 2007 08:43:26 AM | |
| 106 | und am Schweife Füße wie die eines Menschen, und die Stimme gemäß der Stimme der Menschen; | et ad caudam pedes tamquam hominis, et vocem secundum vocem hominum; | and at the tail (there were) feet like that of a man, and a voice of the same sort as the voice of men; [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 12th July 2007 08:43:52 AM | |
| 107 | dessen Bild noch bis jetzt in Zeichnung aufbewahrt werde. | ejusque hucusque delineatam imaginem servari. | and of him a painted picture has been preserved to this day. [RP]
Is this right -- not quite sure. [RP] Locked by [JMB] on 12th July 2007 08:44:04 AM | |
| 108 | Und von demselben Tier sagt er, daß es tagsüber mit den Menschen verkehre und irgendwelcher Speise sich durchaus nicht nahe; | Et feram illam, ait, interdiu cum hominibus versari (versatam esse), ad nullum tamen prorsus cibum accedere (accessisse i. e. nullum .... cibum sumere, sumsisse); | and that that beast, he says, during the day dwelt among the humans, but took absolutely no food at all; [JMB]
prorsus=absolutely, in fact. Locked by [RP] on 13th July 2007 06:26:43 AM | |
| 109 | und es lehre die Menschen die Schriftkunde und die mannigfaltigen Verfahrungsweisen der Künste, die Bildungen von Städten und die Gründungen von Tempeln; auch der Gesetze Handhabung sowie der Grenzen und der Teilungen Bedingungen lehre dasselbe; auch der Getreide und der Früchte Ernten zeige dasselbe; | atque homines edocere (edocuisse) litteras, ac varia artium genera, urbium formas, templorumque fundationes (structuras), et legum doctrinas, ac finium portionumque conditiones edocere (edocuisse), seminum fructuumque collectionera indicare (indicavisse, demonstravisse); | and it taught mankind how to write and the various types of crafts, the building of towns and the founding of temples, and the principles of law; and it taught the delimitation of field-boundaries and parcels (of land), and demonstrated the collection of grains and fruits;
and that he teaches (taught) the letters (/how to write) to the men, and also diverse types of crafts (sciences), the patterns of the cities, and the foundations (constructions) of temples, and the doctrine of the law, and also that he teaches (teached) the delimitation of fields and parcels (plots of lands), (and) reveals (revealed) the harvest (collecta?) of seeds (cereals) and fruits;[JMB] Not very sure about 'finium portionumque conditiones' lit. the making of boundaries and parts.[JMB] No, I think it's right, and delimitation is an excellent choice of words for conditiones; literally a contract, even a marriage, so how to agree and set things up. Pulling this all together with the German we get this: and it taught mankind how to write and the various types of crafts, the building of towns and the founding of temples, and the principles of law; and it taught the delimitation of field-boundaries and parcels (of land), and demonstrated the collection of grains and fruits; ('crafts' for artis was an inspired translation, JMB!). Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 07:48:24 AM | |
| 110 | und überhaupt alles, was nur immer dem gesellschaftlichen Leben der Welt von statten kommt, überliefere es den Menschen; | et summatim, quidquid familiaritati (consortio) vitae mundi conveniens sit, hominibus tradere (tradidisse); | and to sum up, whatever might be useful for community life in the world, it handed over to men;
and briefly, that he hands over (handed over) whatever is appropriate to the intimacy (partnership) of the life of everyone (mankind,world, universe...).[JMB] i.e to the life in community. [JMB] Agreed. That 'consortio vitae mundi' (gesellschaftlichen Leben der Welt) is a bit odd. I've smoothed it a little, rendering consortio as community, vitae as a dative (so community life) and vitae mundi as "of life in the world". [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 07:56:15 AM | |
| 111 | und seit jener Zeit werde von keinem anderen mehr etwas erfunden. | et ab illo inde tempore alium quemquam nihil amplius invenire (invenisse). | and since that time nothing further has been invented.
either: ...and that from that time thenceforth they never find (found) another one (quemquam object). Find is good for invenisse -- perhaps 'find out' -- but invented works too. Changed to reflect this. 'since that time=from that time onward' I've followed the German. "nothing further" for "alium nihil amplius", although I'm not entirely satisfied with it. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:01:44 AM | |
| 112 | Und bei Sonnenuntergang tauche das Untier Oan wieder zurückkehrend in das Meer: unter und gehe nachtsüber in der hohen See zur Küste; so daß es gewissermaßen ein doppellebiges Leben lebe. | At sole occidente Oannem feram rursus in mare mergi (mersam esse), nocteque in mari immenso collocari (collocatam, commoratam), atque ita ancipitem quandam (amphibii more) vitam vivere (vixisse). | And that at sunset, the beast/monster Oannes submerged again in the water, and by night went on the high tide to the coast; so that he lived, so to speak, a double life.
And at sunset that the Monster Oannes dives again returning to the sea and that he goes by night in the high sea (meaning the high tide?) to the coast; that he lives, so to speak, a double life. [DM]
Good for you! NB: the German will guide you; use the link at the top of the page for a machine translator. [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:02:52 AM | |
| 113 | Auch später seien noch andere diesem ähnliche Untiere erschienen: über welche, sagt er, im Buch der Könige Meldung geschehe. | Postea vero alias quoque feras eidem similes apparuisse, de quibus in volumine regum ait se manifestare (s. manifestavisse s. manifestaturum esse). | Also later indeed other similar monsters appeared, about which he says that he made things clear in the book of the kings.
...that afterwards in fact also other beasts similar to this one (lit. the very same) appeared, about whom he says that he make evident/has made evident (had made evident) in the volume of the kings (i.e,. in the list of the kings) [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:06:17 AM | |
| 114 | Und vom Oan sagt er, es habe dieser über die Schöpfung und das Staatswesen geschrieben und habe verliehen Sprache und Kunstfertigkeit den Menschen. | Oanem autem dicit de rebus creatis (s. de creatione, rerum origine) et de virtutibus (s. reipublicae administratione) scripsisse, hominibusque linguam et sapientiam (peritiam, artem) dedisse." | Further, he says, Oannes wrote about the Creation and about political systems (=public administration) and it gave people language and wisdom (arts and skills).
[ED]
No problem - thank you! Anyone: I'm not entirely sure what is being said in this section, tho. That Oannes wrote about these things? That Alexander Polyhistor did? [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:09:00 AM | |
| 115 | Es war, sagt er, einstens, da durch das | "(Tempus) aliquando erat (fuit), inquit, quo cuncta tenebrae et aqua erant; | there was a time, he (Oannes) says, when all was darkness and water;
"(and that) there was a time, he sys (Oan) when (lit. in which) all was darkness and water; [JMB]
from the next paragraph (habuisse etc), I think that we still are in reported speech rather than direct report.[JMB] Locked by [RP] on 13th July 2007 06:28:30 AM | |
| 116 | Und es waren daselbst gewisse andere Untiere, von denen ein Teil selbsterzeugte waren, und mit lebenerzeugenden Formen ausgestattete; und sie hätten erzengt Menschen, doppeltbeflügelte; dazu auch andere mit vier Flügeln und zwei Gesichtern und einem Leib und zwei Köpfen, Frauen- und Männer | et erant ibi aliae quaedamferae, e quibus aliquae per sese natae erant, et formas viviparas (s. a vivis natas, genitas) habuisse (ait), homines vero duabus alis natos esse, alios autem quatuor alis ac duabus faciebus, et corpus unum (habuisse) duo vero capita, feminea et virilia1); | ...and reasoned (said) that in that place there were certain animals, of whom some were born by themselves (i.e. spontaneusly), and also viviparous forms (born from living animals, begot), in truth men were born with two wings, others (sc. animals) with four wings and with two faces, and (they had) one body but two heads, of females and of males;[JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:22:52 AM | |
| 117 | und zwei Naturen, männlichen und weiblichen; | duas quoque naturas (s. duo genitalia), masculinas ac muliebres1); | and also two natures (sc. two genitals), of masculine and femenine [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:22:07 AM | |
| 118 | weiter noch andere Menschen, mit Schenkeln von Ziegen und Hörnern am Kopfe; | alios etiam homines, quibus femora (fuerint) caprarum, et cornua in capite: | still other men that had goat legs and horns on the head [JMB] I follow the pattern 'mihi sunt filios' 'I have sons' [JMB] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:23:20 AM | |
| 119 | noch andere, pferdefüßige; und andere von Pferdegestalt an der Hinterseite und Menschen | alios autem equinis pedibus, aliisque a parte postica equorum figuram, (ab) antica vero hominum (fuisse), qui hippocentaurorum sirenias2) formas habuerint; | others however with horses' feet, and others from the back part the form of horses, but the front was that of a man, who have the [siren-]forms of centaurs;
other (men) however, with feet of horse, and to others (there was) a [and others had the]form of horse by the back part, however (vero) by the front (part) of man, who might have gotten [subj.] the forms of horse-centaurs (of Sirens); [JMB] aliis should be ablative, but the German renders it nominative. 'with others' seems forced, so I have followed the German. The last verb is subjunctive, but I'm not sure why except as some form of subordinate clause. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 11:21:36 AM | |
| 120 | erzeugt hätten sie auch Stiere, menschenköpfige, und Hunde, vierleibige, deren Schweife nach Art der Fischschwänze rückseits aus den Hinterteilen hervorliefen; | tauros etiam humano capite natos esse, canesque quatuor habentes corpora, quorum caudae caudarum ad instar piscium, a postica parte e clunibus prodierint; | that bulls also were born human-headed, and dogs having four bodies, of which the ends of the tails (were) in the form of fishes, sprouted at the back part from the hindquarters;
there were born also bulls with human head, and dogs having four bodies of which the tail was as the tail of the fish, by the back part they should have sprouted form the hindquarters [JMB] Good. All these have an implied 'dicit' + accusative + infinitive, tho, so we need to rewrite the first bit slightly. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 11:27:19 AM | |
| 121 | auch Pferde mit Himdeköpfen; und Menschen sowie noch andere Ungeheuer, pferde-köpfige und menschenleibige und nach Art der Fische beschwänzte; | item equos cynocephalos, hominesque, et alias etiam feras equinis capitibus, et humanis formis, et more piscium cauda praeditas, | also horses with dog-heads, and men and other animals also with heads of horses, and human forms and provided with tails in the manner of fish; [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 11:29:46 AM | |
| 122 | dazu weiter auch allerlei drachenförmige Unwesen; und Fische [Jusapariks] und Reptilien und Schlangen und eine Menge von Wunderwesen, mannigfaltig gearteten und untereinander verschieden geformten, | et alias quoque diverso genere feras draconum specie, pisces etiam sirenios, et reptilia serpentesque, ac varias bestias multas mirabiles, forma inter se dissimiles; | and also other dragon-formed animals of various kinds, and fishes [sirens] and reptiles and serpents and many different extraordinary animals, differing from one another in appearance;
and also other animals of different types, with the appearance of the dragons, and also siren-fish, and reptiles and serpents and many different extraordinary animals, differing one from the other by the appearance [JMB] Agreed. Just minor tweaking of the English. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 11:33:31 AM | |
| 123 | deren Bilder sie im Tempel des Belos eins neben dem andern dargestellt aufbewahrten. | quarum imagines in Beli templo singulatim pictas servabant. | of (all of) which they have preserved painted representations side by side in the temple of Belos.
they preserved painted representations of all of them (lit. of them one by one)in the temple of Belos [JMB] Good. singulatim here I think means all those pictures next to each other in the temple. I've rephrased slightly: shout if you don't agree. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 11:36:28 AM | |
| 124 | Und es habe über alle diese ein Weib geherrscht, dessen Name Markaye heiße, das auf chaldäisch Thalattha genannt werde und auf griechisch verdolmetscht werde Thalattha [das ist Meer]. | Illis autem omnibus mulierem quandam, cujus3) nomen vocetur Marcaje, dominatam esse, quae chaldaice Thalattha nominatur, et graece vertitur Thalattha4), quod est mare5). | And a (certain) woman ruled over all these, whose name was Markaje, called Thalatta in Chaldaic, and in Greek it is translated as Thalatta, which means 'sea'.
And, as he said, all these (creatures)were dominated by a woman, whose name was Marcaje, called Thalatta in Chaldaic, and in Greek it was translated into Thalatta, which means sea. [ED]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:03:08 PM | |
| 125 | Während nun dieses Sämtliche aufgeregt stand zu einer chaotischen Masse, sei Belos dagegen angestürmt und habe das Weib mitten entzwei gespalten: | Dum autem haec omnia in unum conflata surrecta steterint, irruens Belus mediam mulierem dissecat: | However while all these stood together excitedly, Belos rushing in cut the woman in half:
however, while all these started-to-grown things stood together (lit in one). Belus, rushing, cut the half of the woman. [JMB] More from the German. conflata surrecta is hard to follow. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 01:24:47 PM | |
| 126 | aus der einen Hälfte habe er gemacht die Erde, aus der andern Hälfte den Himmel; | dimidiam ejus partem faciendo (faciens) terram, et dimidiam caelum; | from one half he made the Earth, from the other half Heaven;
making half a part of her the Earth, and (the other) half the Heaven;[JMB] Lat: making one half-part of her the Earth and the (other) half heaven. We need to signal the difference in the footnote. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 01:27:11 PM | |
| 127 | und auch die andern Tiere, die in ihr waren, habe er vernichtet. | atque alias etiam feras, quae in ipsa erant, perdens. | and also destroying the other monsters/animals which were in her.
ISSUE Or: losing also in addition the other animals that were in it (in the part, sc. heaven) [JMB] Or: and also destroying the other monsters/animals which were in her. But this makes no sense. Why is 'ipsa'= caelum? or earth? or both? Unclear, but correct by comparison with Syncellus. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:46:53 AM | |
| 128 | Sinnbildlicherweise aber, sagt er, und in übertragener Bedeutung sei solches mythologisiert worden über die Naturen: | Sed allegorice ac diverso modo physiologice ait de ejusmodi naturis dissertum esse, | he said that it was arranged about the natures of this kind, but allegorically and, in a different way, physiologically[JMB]
ISSUE: German: "But, he said, that it was stated symbolically, and the meaning had been mythologised in transmission, about nature:" Not sure about this one. I think the Latin is saying something different: "But he said that it was stated allegorically and physiologically in a different way about nature of this kind."? Syncellus: "He says that this is to be interpreted as an allegory about nature." [RP] In the light of all these, the latin could be something like: But he says/said (ait) that he has discussed about the natures of this kind (>this kind of natures> this kind of beings) allegorically and also, in a different (separate opposite) way, naturally (by nature/physiologically). What do you think? [JMB] Now that is a good point; i.e. discussed "allegorically, and in the opposite way, literally". I suggest that we leave this one for footnoting as being uncertain and offer the alternatives to the reader. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:59:58 AM | |
| 129 | daß nämlich, als noch überall Feuchtigkeit und Wasser war und allein die Ungeheuer in demselben waren, jener Gott sich das Haupt abgeschlagen habe, | quod dum adhuc per universum humor et aqua esset, ac ferae tantummodo in ea essent, idolum illud suum sibi caput amputasse, | that, because while there was still fluid and water everywhere, and only the monstrosities were in it, that idol cut off its own head,
because as long as to this point there were liquid and water through the universe, and the animals were merely in them; that that idol of them cut off himself his head,[JMB] (?) Comparing with Syncellus, the idol is Bel, who cut his own head off -- mixed myths here, I think. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:00:37 PM | |
| 130 | und das Blut, das von ihm herabrami, die andern Götter aufgefangen, mit Erde verknetet und Menschen daraus gebildet hätten; | et sanguinem ab eo defluentem alios deos sumsisse, cum humo commiscuisse, hominesque creasse, | and that other gods obtained the blood running down from him, mixed it with clay (lit. soil) and created men [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 01:43:32 PM | |
| 131 | weshalb diese auch weise und des Geistes des Göttergeschlechtes teilhaftig würden. | quapropter sapientes flunt ac divinae mentis participes. | because of that, they (the men) became wise and sharing in the divine mind [JMB] fiunt?[JMB] Agreed. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 01:46:14 PM | |
| 132 | Und von Belos sagt man, der auf griechisch Dios übersetzt wird und auf armenisch Aramazd, er habe die Finsternis mitten durchschnitten und habe getrennt von einander den Himmel und die Erde, und habe ordnend eingerichtet die Welt; | De Belo autem, qui graece Dios vertitur, armeniace vero Aramazd1), dicunt, eum tenebras per medium (medias) scidisse, et caelum et terram inter se separasse, ac mundum (ordine) ordinando composuisse; | About Belus, however, which is rendered in Greek 'God', but in Armenian 'Aramazd', they say that he divided the darkness through the middle, and separated heaven and earth to each other, and settled the world that needed to be ordered in an orderly manner;
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:04:52 PM | |
| 133 | die Untiere aber hätten nicht ertragen des Lichtes Kraft und seien untergegangen. | feras vero lucis vim haud sustinentes, periisse (s. perdidisse)2). | but that the monsters, unable to sustain the force of the light, perished (i.e. were destroyed).
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:04:57 PM | |
| 134 | Belos aber, als er eine öde und fruchtbare Gegend sah, habe einem von den Göttern Befehl gegeben von dem Blute, das von seinem abgetrennten Haupte herabfließe, mit Erde zu vermischen und Menschen zu bilden, sowie andere Tiere und wildes Vieh, die diese Luft ertragen könnten. | Belum, quum desertam quandam regionem ac feracem videret, idolorum (deorum) cuipiam praecepisse, ut sanguinem, qui descenderet (deflueret) de praesecto suo capite, cum humo commisceret, hominesque crearet, et alias bestias ac feras, quae hunc aerem sustinere possent; | that Belus, when he saw this abandoned and fruitful region, commanded one of the idols (gods), to mix the blood which dripped out of his head (which was cut at the front) with earth and to make men, as well as other animals and wild cattle, which could survive in this air. [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:51:57 AM | |
| 135 | Gegründet habe Belos die Gestirne und die Sonne und den Mond und die fünf Wandelsterne. | Belum astra et solem lunamque, ac quinque stellas seductionum (errorum, errantes i. e. Planetas) condidisse." | that Belus founded the stars and the sun and the moon, and the 5 wandering stars (i.e. planets)." [RP] Comparison with Syncellus says that this is where the quote from Polyhistor stops. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:08:24 PM | |
| 136 | Dieses erzählt, nach des Polyhistors [Zeugnis], Berosos im ersten Buche; | Haec secundum Polyhistorem Berosus in primo volumine narrat; | According to Polyhistor, Berosus tells [narrates] these things in the First Volume; [..] Perhaps 'relates'? [RP] Sure. But I wonder whether the excessively literal "narrates" might be usefully kept to catch the eye of somone interested in critical theory or PoMo historiogaphy, I mean narratologists.[..] Locked by [RP] on 13th July 2007 03:26:37 AM | |
| 137 | im zweiten aher beschreibt derselbe die Könige, einen nach dem andern, und läßt die Zeit der zehn Könige, worüber wir vorhin gesprochen, über mehr als 40 Myriaden von Jahren sich erstrecken. | in secundo vero (libro) reges unum post alterum idem conscribit; et tempus decem regum, de quo supra diximus, supra XL. myriades annorum protrahit. | in the Second (Book), indeed, he wrote down the kings one after another; and the time of the Ten Kings, of which we have spoken above, he places more than 400,000 years [or forty myriads] earlier.
ALTERNATIVELY: in the Second (Book), indeed, he wrote down the kings one after another; and he extends the period of the Ten Kings, of which we have spoken above, by more than 400,000 years [or forty myriads].[..] ISSUE Is everyone ok with "places...earlier" for "protrahit"? Could it mean "makes it stretch over" or "extends"?[..]
Myriades looks accusative; I think time duration is somehow involved, to me looks something like he moves (/drags) forward the time of the ten kings for 400.000 years. Indeed, 'extend' sounds better in English. How's the ALT?[..] The German suggests "and allows the time of the ten kings, of whom we spoke earlier, to extend over more than 40 myriads of years." (I think we shouldn't expand 40 myriads to 40,000 years?) This is a different idea to protrahit which must mean 'prolongs' or something like that. So I think ALT is better of the two. Howabout going with the German and footnoting Alt? [RP] Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:08 AM | |
| 138 | Wenn nun aber jemand meinen würde, es hätten die Chaldäer etwas Richtiges gesagt, die eine so große Anzahl von Jahren verzeichnet haben, dann wäre es billig auch ihre übrigen trügerischen Erzählungen zu glauben. | Porro si quis de Chaldaeis putet verum loqui, qui tot annorum numerum conscripserunt, tum justum erit (oportebit) eos et aliis ipsorum fallacibus historiis credere. | Further, if someone should think that truth is being spoken about the Chaldaeans, who have written down such a great number of years, then it will truly be necessary to believe (them, and) their other deceitful stories.
Further, if someone should think [that] what they have written down such a great number of years to be telling the truth about the Chaldeans, then it will be fair to believe them and their other fallacious stories. [CPJ] Great! Note that here is yet another of these constructions, common in this chunk, structure: "he says/thinks + accusative(verum) + infinitive", which we render in English as "he says/thinks that truth (treat as English nominative) + indicative (loqui, pres, passive) is being spoken". What about 'enroll' for 'scripserunt'? Rather than 'justum erit=it will be fair', let's render 'justum oportebit=it will fairly be necessary'. But the German chops some of this and renders it "then it will ne necessary also to believe their other deceitful stories'. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:21:51 PM | |
| 139 | Wenn aber dieses die Natur übersteigt und überschreitet, und an sich gänzlich unglaubhaft ist ---- wiewohl es auf eine andere Weise verstanden sein könnte ----, | Jam vero naturam hoc excedit superatque, et prorsus adeo fide non dignum est, etiamsi aliter intelligatur. | Now this truly exceeds and outdoes nature, and really indeed is not worthy of belief, even if it is understood in another way.
Now truly this exceeds and outdoes nature, and utterly to such a degree, it is not worthy of belief, even if it is understood in another way. [CPJ] German: But if this exceeds and conquers nature, and itself is completely unbelieveable -- even if it could be understood in another way -- [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:26:44 PM | |
| 140 | wenn also jemand sich hiervon überzeugt, so wird er auch darnach verfahren und jene Zeitenberichte nicht annehmen ohne Untersuchung. | Quod si quis haec ita esse censeat, sequitur, ut temporum quoque enarrationes (doctrinas) sine inquisitione non recipiat. | Because if someone should judge that this is so, it follows, that he does not accept the statements (teachings) of historical dates also, without investigation.
But if someone should think this to be so, it follows that likewise one should not accept the explanations (teachings) without inquiry of the times. [CPJ] Good! Looking at the German: if therefore someone convinces themselves of this, then will he also continue from this (proceed from this), and not accept those histories (time-reports) without investigation. 'recipiat' is subjunctive; indicating a subordinate clause? Rendering temporum as 'historical dates' as 'dates' alone sounds like fruit! [RP] Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:19 AM | |
| 141 | Wenn sie nun für soviele Tausende von Jahren, die nach ihrer Chronographie zusammenkommen, [nur auch noch] die Thronfolger der Völker entsprechend der Ausgedehntheit der Zeit vorführen würden, sowie irgendwelche Werke und Taten, die im Zwischenraum vollbracht worden, im entsprechenden Verhältnis zu der Länge der Zeiten, so könnte man vielleicht mit Hecht hin- und herschwanken, ob denn nicht vielleicht doch in Wirklichkeit bei ihnen die Wahrheit vorläge. | Etenim si tot annorum millibus, qui juxta eorum chronographiam colliguntur, successores etiam (principatus) gentium temporis longinquitati congruentes proferrent, ac res aliquas et facinora interim facta longo temporum spatio consentanea, fortasse quis profecto (jure, merito) suspicaretur (ad verbum huc illuc urgeretur, vacillaret")., aliqua certe illis veritas inesse possit. | And indeed if for so many thousands of years, which are calculated according to their chronography, the successors (as kings) of the nations were also mentioned as equally long-lived, and likewise any works and deeds carried out in the period (take a long time), corresponding to the length of the period, perhaps one might justifiably question whether it is possible that in fact in some way the truth is not in these things. [RP]
Lit. 'which are calculated according to their chronography', -- i.e. 'which their chronography adds up to'. 'agreeing in longevity'->'equally long-lived'. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:54 AM | |
| 142 | Da sie nun aber bloß der Regierung jener zehn Männer so viele Myriaden von Jahren zugerechnet haben, wer sollte da nicht solche maßlose Berichte für Sage halten. | Jam vero si tot annorum myriades decem solummodo virorum imperio (concedendas) existimaverunt, quis non deliramenta fabulasque3) ejusmodi narrationes reputet? | Indeed because they assigned so many myriads of years for the reign of just ten men, who would not consider that stories of this kind were not fables and the products of deranged minds?
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:40 AM | |
| 143 | Es sei denn etwa, daß die sogenannten Saren nicht die bei uns gemeinten Jahre bedeuten, sondern irgendeinen andern kurzen Zeitraum. | Fortasse olim nominati (dicti) Sari annos haud a nobis recensitos significent, sed aliud quoddam exigui temporis intervallum. | It may be then that the 'sars' that we have mentioned before do not signify a 'year' but another (quoddam )short interval of time.
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:44 AM | |
| 144 | Denn auch bei den Vorfahren der Egypter sprach man von Lunaren, das heißt, die Monatstage, 30 Tage zusammengefaßt, nannten sie Jahre. | Etenim apud Egiptiorum majores lunares quidem dicebant (sc. annos), hoc est (videlicet) menstruos dies, dies xxx. continentes annos vocabant: | Likewise among the ancestors of the Egyptians they used to speak of lunar cycles, i.e. the days of a month, 30 days altogether, calling these 'years'. [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 08:52:48 AM | |
| 145 | Und andere nannten Hören die dreimonatlichen Zeiten; diese [Jahres]zeiten, sage ich, und. die in den einzelnen Jahren [statthabenden] dreimonatlichen Wandlungen rechneten sie zu einem Jahre. | et alii horas (w#raj) tempora trimestria appellabant; tempora, inquam, (scil. tempestates anni) et mutationes trimestres juxta singulos annos pro anno reputabant. | And others named three-month periods "hours"; times, I say, (certainly seasons of the year) and three-month changes they considered on a par with single years instead of a year. [CPJ] Short & Lewis gives Hora also as time of the year, season; also as the godesses that presided over the changes of the seasons. I thing that it is not necessary to translate the "scil." [JMB] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:08:06 AM | |
| 146 | Angemessen und zu Fug ist es, daß auch der sogenannte Sar der Chaldäer etwas derartiges bedeuten will. | Conveniens ac congruum est (ut dicamus), quod Chaldaeorum quoque Sarus appellatus, tale quidpiam indicare voluerit. | It is appropriate and right (as we say) that the so-called 'Sar' of the Chaldaeans is intended to indicate something of the kind.
It is appropriate and agreeing (as we may say), such [that] anyone may have wished [will wish?] to indicate [that] which likewise is called a "sar" by the Chaldeans. [CPJ] This phrasing still sounds a bit awkward to me, but I think gets the general idea across. I'm not always clear on good English interpretation of Latin subjunctives. It seems to be his sense is that: Okay now, let's agree that this is enough for anyone to explain what the Chaldeans called "sars" most likely are in reality. [CPJ] I mostly agree, I read: It is appropriate and coherent (as we may say), that what was actually (quoque) called (appelatus est) Sars by the Chaldeans, wanted to indicate any of those explanations (lit. any of such).[JMB] German: It is appropriate and right, that also the so-called 'Sar' of the Chaldaeans must mean something of the kind. I think that Sarus is the nominative and thus the subject, which is doing the 'voluerit' (well, there's no other verb, is there?), i.e. 'wishing to indicate'. I think we all understand what is got at here. I've had a stab at the top. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:42:57 PM | |
| 147 | Also, nur zehn Geschlechter von Alöros, ihrem ersten genannten Könige, bis auf Xisuthron zählen sie; unter welchem die große Sintflut gewesen sei, [so] lauten ihre Geschichtsberichte. | Igitur ab Aloro qui primus eorum rex nominatus est, usque ad Xisuthrum decem generationes tantum enumerant, sub quo factum fuisse magnum diluvium narrant. | Therefore they enumerate ten generations from Alorus, who was named their first king, down to Xisuthrus, in whose time they relate that there took place the Great Flood.
Therefore, from Aloros, who was named their first king, all the way to Xisuthros, enumerate ten generations so far, during which [referring to the period?, or "under whom" referring to Xisutros?] they tell [that] the great flood took place. [CPJ]
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 09:01:31 AM | |
| 148 | Auch in den Schriften der Hebräer nennt zehn Geschlechter vor der Sintflut Moses; denn auch bei den Hebräern werden ebensoviele Folgen von Männern der Reihe nach beschrieben vom ersten Menschen an, über den von ihnen berichtet wird, bis zur Sintflut. | In Hebraeorum quoque libris, x generationes (fuisse) ante diluvium Moses affirmat: etenim ab Hebraeis etiam tot virorum successiones a primo homine, qui ab iis refertur, usque ad diluvium singulatim describuntur. | Besides, in the books of the Hebrews, Moses says that there were ten generations before the Flood: and indeed actually all the successions (i.e generations) of men from the first human, who is recorded by them, to the Flood are written down separately by the Hebrews [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 16th July 2007 09:08:43 AM | |
| 149 | Aber die Hebräergeschichte zieht die Jahre dieser 10 Geschlechter auf die Zahl von etwa Zweitausend zusammen; | Verumtamen Hebraeorum historia x geuerationum annos numero fere duorum millium comprehendit. | Still, the history of the Hebrews covers (/covered) the years of ten generations approximately in the number of 2000 (years) [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:08:30 AM | |
| 150 | die der Assyrer jedoch, die im einzelnen ins kleine hinein verfolgt die Geschlechter, hat [zwar] ihre Gesamtzahl entsprechend derjenigen der Bücher Moses', ihre Zeiten jedoch nicht ebenso übereinstimmend. | Assyriorum vero (historia) minute persequens (investigans) generationes earum numerum Mosis libro aequalem exhibet, non item tempora. | Certainly, [when he was] following (/investigating) minutely the generations (in the history) of the Assyrians, it (sc. the A history) gives a number of them (sc. generations) identical to the book of Moses, although not (lit. not likewise) in years (lit time)[JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:09:51 AM | |
| 151 | Denn 120 Saren, sagen sie, nähmen ein die zehn Geschlechter; worüber sie prahlen, daß es die Zeiten von 43 Myriaden von Jahren ausmache. | Etenim decem (illi) generationes (illi) cxx Saros continere ajunt: quos annorum mmxliii myriadum1) tempora conficere perhibent. | So they say that (those) 10 generations equal (those) 120 sars: about which they boast that the time adds up to (2043)43 myriads of years. [RP] I still think that we have to read 'annorum MM, XLIII myriadum'432000 =120 x (60 x 60) [JMB] Thank you for suggesting this -- it feels right! And one can see how it might cause confusion. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:10:50 AM | |
| 152 | Darum also ist es naheliegend auch dir, der du nach dem Worte der Wahrheit trachtest, aus diesem da von selbst zu begreifen, daß Xisuthros derselbe ist, der von den Hebräern Nö genannt wird, unter welchem gewesen ist die große Sintflut, über welche auch des Polyhistors Schriften Nachricht geben. | Jam vero tibi quoque, qui veritatis verbo incumbes, prope (facile) est ex his quidem quae diximus, per te intelligere, Xisuthrum eundem esse, qui ab Hebraeis No nuncupatur, sub quo magnum diluvium factum est; de quo etiam Polyhistoris liber praebet notitiam: | So also for you, who search after the word of truth, it is easy from these things however about which we spoke, for you to grasp that Xisurthos is the same as he that is called Noah by the Hebrews, in whose time the great flood took place, about which also Polyhistor's book gives notice: [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:29:23 PM | |
| 153 | Er schreibt nämlich darüber etwa folgenderweise : | de eo enim tale quidquam (hoc modo) scribit. | about which he writes in the following way:
Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:31:21 AM | |
| 154 | Alexandros des Polyhistors | Alexandri Polyhistoris de Diluvio ex eodem libro de quo dictum est. | Alexander Polyhistor, on the Flood, from the same book spoken of above.Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 08:31:27 AM | |
| 155 | Nach dem Ende des Otiartes, sagt er, habe dessen Sohn Xisuthros regiert 8 Saren; und unter diesem sei gewesen die große Wasserflut. | Otiarte defuncto, inquit, ejusdem filium Xisuthrum regnasse Saros xviii2) atque sub eo factum esse magnum diluvium." | When Otiartes was dead, he says (/said) that Xisuthros, his son, was king for 18 (8) Sars, and under his (rule) the great Flood occurred[JMB]
Looks good! Rendering eiusdem filium as 'his son' rather than 'son of the same', which is fine. German gives 8 rather than 18 sars. I've replaced 'big' with 'great' and added the German no. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:15:58 AM | |
| 156 | Und das Einzelne in die Schrift einschlagend, erzählt er dieserweise: | Litteris autem mandans singillatim ita narrat. | but delivering (it over) separately in writing, he tells (it) in this way [JMB]
ISSUE:not sure[JMB] Me neither! "but (autem) in letters (litteris, i.e. in writing?) committing/delivering (mandans) [it] one by one (singillatim) so (ita) he relates (narrat)." which makes very little sense. I think this singillatim is something we have seen before, used of relating things one after another as found in the original text (i.e. Eusebius is saying how he is quoting Polyhistor when Polyhistor is quoting someone else). If so the various places will clarify it. Perhaps it means simply "But copying it literally in order, he relates thus:"? What do you think? [RP] I think that perhaps it means that Polyhistor tell this tale as a somewhat independent disgresion. Singillatim could be individually > separatelly?[JMB] A good idea. Thus: "But copying literally, he relates (it) separately thus:"? [RP] Yes, I think this is the meaning.[JMB] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:21:48 AM | |
| 157 | Krön, sagt er, habe ihm im Schlafe geoffenbart [derselbe, den sie »Vater des Aramazd« nennen, und Andere »Zeit«], daß am fünfzehnten des Monats Desios [d. i. Mareri] die Menschheit durch die Sintflut untergehen werde; | Kro/non (Saturnum), inquit, quem patrem nuncupant Aramazdi (Jovis), alii vero Tempus (Xro/non), ei (sc. Xisuthro) per somnum revelasse, die mensis Daesii3), scilicet Mareri decimoquinto, homines a diluvio exstinctum iri, | He says that Kronos (=Saturn) [the same that they call the "father of Aramazd" (=Jupiter) and others call "Time" (=Chronos)] revealed to him in a dream that on the 15th of the month Desios (i.e. Mareri) mankind would be wiped out by the Flood;
'him'=Xisuthros. 'The same that' does not appear, just 'who' [JMB] Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:34:41 PM | |
| 158 | Befehl habe er gegeben: sämtliche, sowohl die ersten als die mittleren und die letzten Schriftwerke zu vergraben und niederzulegen in der Sonnenstadt der Siparer; | (atque eidem) praeceptum dedisse, ut omnia prima, et media, nec non extrema voluminum effossa1) (s. infossa) in solis urbe (Heliopoli) Siparenorum2) deponeret, | (and to him (Xisuthros) ) he (Chronos) gave an order that they should gather and bury the starts, and middles and not least the ends of all the books in the city of the sun (Heliopolis) of Sippar.
(and) he gave the order to gather and bury the first, middle and final volumes in the city of the sun (Heliopolis) of the inhabitants of Sippar;
atque eidem: 'and to himself' Good! Revised. But is eidem = item, i.e. likewise? [RP] I took it as dative of idem, that is Xisuthros.[JMB] OK. We'll go with that! Thanks! [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 03:44:43 PM
By himself would be in ablative, eodem, and since eodem is usually used as an adverb I would expect a preposition to be used (ab eodem). As dative I think that 'atque eidem' means (from the previous paragraph): (Kronos) also gave an order (praeceptum dedisse) to Xisuthros (lit. himself), that...[JMB] This is clearly right. Well spotted! Changed. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:25:09 AM | |
| 159 | ein Schiff zu bauen und in das Innere einzugehen mit seinen Geschlechtsgenossen und nötigen | ut navim fabricaret, et cum consanguineis ac necessariis amicis ingrederetur; | to build a ship and enter it with his relatives and selected friends; Maybe 'close friends' would be better.[JMB] Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:47:51 PM | |
| 160 | aufzuspeichern darinnen Mundvorräte und Getränke; hineinzuführen auch wilde Tiere und Vögel und Vierfüßler; und. mit allen Zurüstungen sich bereit zu halten zur Schiffahrt. | ut congereret intus esculenta et poculenta, feras quoque et volatiles quadrupedesque introduceret; atque omni cum apparatu ad navigandum expeditus fieret. | to store therein food and drink, to take with him also wild beasts and birds and quadrupeds, and with all things necessary for sailing to prepare to set forth.
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:30:23 AM | |
| 161 | Gefragt habe er, wohin denn nur er schiffen werde; | Roganti autem quo navigandum? | Having asked (Abl. Abs) howerver: where he (I, we, they) had to navigate? (navigandum esset: something like 'it has (/must) to be navigated') [JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:30:35 AM | |
| 162 | Antwort sei ihm geworden: zu den Göttern, Gebete zu verrichten, damit Heil den Menschen werde. | responsum: ad deos, orandi causa, ut bona hominibus eveniant". | The answer (was): to the gods (at gods' will?), for the purpose of pleading, for the good of men (Lit. to good things happen to men).[JMB] to 'orandi causa'see A&G 504b[JMB] Good! Thanks for the reference also. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:30:56 AM | |
| 163 | Und nicht unterließ er zu wirken das Werk des Schiffswerkes; dessen Länge war fünfzehn Pfeilschüsse und seine Breite zwei Pfeilschüsse. | Nec praetermisit conficere opus fabricationis navis; cujus longitudo quindecim3) stadiorum erat, latitudo autem stadiorum duorum. | Nor did he omit to complete the work of building the ship; of which the length was fifteen stadia but the width two stadia.
and he did not omit to accomplish the work of the making of the ship; whose length was of fifteen stadiums and whose width (was) of two stadiums (3000 x 400 m) [JMB] Good. Minor smoothing added. I think we can say stadia in English. Thank you! [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 09:08:26 AM | |
| 164 | Fertig, ausgerüstet nach allem, wie er auch Befehl erhalten hatte, habe er Frau und Kinder und die nötigen Freunde in das Innere eingeführt. | Cunctis itaque rebus apposite comparatis, uti praeceptum acceperat, (eum) uxorem et liberos, necessariosque amicos (ait) introduxisse. | And so, after all things had been suitably prepared, as ordered, (he says that) he led in his wife, sons, and close friends.
thus, having prepared suitably all these things , as he was commanded (lit. as he had received command), (he says(/it is said) that he) led his wife, sons and closely connected friends in. [JMB] Agreed. Minor edits for English. The literal rendering of things is very useful, by the way -- thank you. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 09:11:33 AM | |
| 165 | Als nun die Sintflut hereingebrochen and eilends wieder abgenommen, entlasse Xisuthros etliche Vögel, und sie finden keine Nahrung und weder Stelle noch Standort sich niederzulassen; zurückgekehrt nehme er sie wieder in das Schiff auf. | Ingruente diluvio et confestim cessante volucres quasdam Xisuthrum emisisse, easque cum nihil invenissent pabuli, nec locum statiouemve considendi, rursum in navim recepisse, | After the flood had rushed forth, and suddenly stopping, Xosuthros sent forth some flying creatures, and when these found nourishment nowhere, and no place to settle on, he took them back again on the ship.
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 09:11:39 AM | |
| 166 | Und nach einigen wenigen Tagen entlasse er wieder andere Vögel; | sed post paucos (aliquot) dies iterum alias dimisisse aves, | and after a few days he again sent forth other birds, [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:49:33 PM | |
| 167 | und auch diese kehren abermals in das Schiff zurück, von Lehm schlammige Krallen führend. | et eas quoque rursum in navim reversas ungues4) coeno oblitos gerentes. | and they also in turn went back (eas reversas sunt) carring the claws dirty with mud.[JMB] oblitos: forgetfull >> dirty, a similar metaphor is still used in modern Latin languages cf. Spanish 'descuidado' [JMB] Locked by [RP] on 14th July 2007 02:43:35 PM | |
| 168 | Darauf lasse er ein drittes Mal welche los, und sie kehren nicht wieder in das Schiff zurück. | Tertio demum emisisse, nec ulterius navim repetiisse. | At length he released them a third time, and they did not return to the ship. [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:50:03 PM | |
| 169 | Da erkenne Xisuthros, daß die Erde zum Vorschein gekommen und offen liege; | Animadvertisse tunc Xisuthrum, terram detectam patere; | Then Xisuthros knew that the earth was exposed and accessible; [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 05:31:24 AM | |
| 170 | er erbreche eine Seite des Schiffsdeckes und sehe das Schiff aufgefahren, an einen Berg angelehnt. | dissolvisse aliquam tecti navis partem, ac VIdisse navim delatam adhaesisse ad quemdam montem. | he broke open a side of the ship's deck and saw that the ship had come down and rested against a hill. he broke open a side of the ship's deck and saw that the ship had sunk down and rested against a hill. Maybe sunk is too strong. fallen? [JMB] Locked by [JMB] on 16th July 2007 03:58:57 PM
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:56:12 AM | |
| 171 | Er steige heraus, begleitet von Frau und einer Tochter, mitsamt dem Schiffsmeister und bete an auf der Erde, errichte einen Altar und bringe den Göttern Opfer dar. | Egressum (itaque) cum uxore ac filia una et navis architecto5) (gubernatore) in terra6) adorasse, atque ara exstructa, diis sacrificium obtulisse: | (And so) having disembarked on land with his wife and a daughter and the ship master, and built an altar, (that) he offered a sacrifice to the gods:
(consequently) having disembarked in land with (his) wife and (his) only (lit. one) daughter and the designer (pilot) of the ship, worshiped, and having built an altar up, offered a sacrifice to the gods [JMB] Agreed. Minor smoothing of the English, and I'll add a footnote on 'one'. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 09:19:06 AM | |
| 172 | Und seither sei er aus den Augen entschwunden gewesen samt jenen, die mit ihm aus dem Schiffe herausgestiegen waren. | ac postea cum iis, qui secum e navi egressi erant, ab oculis abiisse (evanuisse). | and afterwards with those, who disembarked from the ship with him, disappeared (vanished) out of view (lit. from the eyes)[JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 09:20:00 AM | |
| 173 | Und die dort im Schiffe geblieben waren, und mit den Xisuthriden nicht herausgegangen waren, als sie nachher hinausgetreten, suchten sie ihn und umherirrend riefen sie ihn laut an, mit Namen nennend. | Qui vero in navi remanserant, nec cum sociis Xisuthri egressi erant, deinde egredientes eum quaerebant, atque circumeuntes nomine inclamabant, vocabantque. | Those however who had stayed in the ship, and had not disembarked with the companions of Xisuthos, then (while) disembarking searched for him, and, going around, shouted and called (him) by (his) name.[JMB]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 03:49:07 PM | |
| 174 | Xisuthros ist ihnen fürderhin nicht mehr ererschienen; | Xisuthrum eis deinceps non comparuisse; | Xisuthros no longer appeared to them; [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 17th July 2007 11:18:42 AM | |
| 175 | der Schall einer Stimme jedoch, die aus den Lüften kam gab Vorschrift: daß es ihnen Pflicht sei, Götterverehrer zu werden; | sed sonus vocis ex aere veniens, (illis) imperabat, oportere eos deorum cultores fieri. | but the sound of a voice coming from the air commanded (them), that it was necessary for them to become worshippers of the gods.
but a sound of a voice coming from heaven (lit. air), commanded them, that it was proper that they were made worshipers of the gods[JMB] who are 'they'? [JMB] Those who had not exited the ship with Xisuthros. I think 'air' is better than heaven. German for last bit is "that it was their duty to become worshippers of the gods." [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 03:53:45 PM | |
| 176 | und daß er selbst von wegen seiner Götterverehrung hingefahren in der Wohnung der Götter wohne; | Se autem ob deorum cultum profectum inhabitare habitationem deorum; | However he, on account of his acceptable worship of the gods, is living in the residence of the gods;
that they however, for having worshiped the gods (lit. because of the accomplished worship of the gods) are dwelling in the residence of the gods.[JMB] I think that 'Se' must refers to the speaker, i.e Xisuthros and cia, therefore they in the previous paragraph should refer to the listeners.[JMB] Good! Se could be he or they. Let's follow the German and footnote the alternative. German: "and that he himself because of his worship of the gods would live in the residence of the gods." He must be Xisuthros. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:01:35 PM | |
| 177 | und daß seine Gattin und Tochter und der Schiffsmeistor ebendieselbe Ehre genössen; | nec non uxorem et filiam et navis architectum (gubernatorem) eodem honore frui, | and his wife and daughter and the ship-master (captain) (would) enjoy the same honour.
and also his wife, his daughter and the designer (/pilot) of the ship were also worshiped (lit. benefited from the same honour)[JMB] Good. I've edited it in line with similar words in an earlier section. I see that fruo takes ablative and is present deponent, so we don't need by/from/with. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:07:13 PM | |
| 178 | und er gebe ihnen Weisung und Vorschrift, wiederum nach Babylon zu gehen; | atque monitum et mandatum dare, ut rursum Babilonem (ipsi) proficiscerentur, | and gave a warning and an order to go back to Babylon again, [RP]
Locked by [JMB] on 17th July 2007 03:05:47 PM | |
| 179 | so nämlich laute für sie der Schicksalsspruch der Götter: zu gehen, aus der Stadt der Siparer ausgrabend die Bücher zu holen, die dort geborgen lägen, und sie der Menschheit zu übergeben; | hoc enim deorum praeceptum, ut irent, atque ex Siparenorum urbe7), effossa (s. effodientes) volumina ibi recondita tollerent, hominibusque traderent, | with this as the command of the gods: to go and dig up in the city of Sippara the books from the hole, that lay there for safety, and hand them over to mankind; [RP]
Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:08:05 PM | |
| 180 | und daß der Ort, woselbst sie gelandet sich befänden, das Land Armenien sei. | et locum illum, in quo egressi consisterent, Armeniorum esse regionem. | and that place, in which the disembarkees settled, is the territory of the Armenians.
and that place in which the emigrants settled, is the territory of the Armenians. (dsv) Egressi here likely means 'the disembarked men' rather than emigrants.[JMB] Agreed and changed. Thank you both! [RP] Locked by [RP] on 17th July 2007 04:09:33 PM | |
| 181 | Und jene, als sie alles dies vernommen, hätten den Göttern Opfer dargebracht und seien zu Fuß nach Babylon gezogen. | Ii autem haec omnia audientes victimas diis immolant (immolarunt), et pedibus (ait) Babilonem profectos esse. | (that) those men, however, hearing all this, sacrified victims to the gods, and (he said that they) set out on foot to Babylon.
Those men, however, hearing all this, made burnt offerings to the gods, and (declare) that they set out on foot for Babylon. (dsv)
sacrificed animals (or victims), rather than made burnt offerings. Also I think that the ait (he says/said) is because almost all this chunk is in reported style mixing subjunctive and accusative + infinitive sentences, so.. that those men however... [JMB] Thank you both! The reported speech does indeed continue, and the ait reminds us of this. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:34:56 AM | |
| 182 | Von dem Schiffe aber soll dort, wo es landend sich niedergelassen in Armenien, noch bis auf heute ein kleiner Teil auf dem Korduäergebirge im Armenierlande als Überrest geblieben sein; | De nave autem illa (eo loco), quo iens substitit in Armenia1), parvam hodieque aliquam partem in Corduaeorum montibus in terra Armeniorum remansisse, (tamquam) reliquias, dicunt; | However of the ship, where it landed in Armenia, they say that a small part has remained until our own day in the Kurdish mountains in Armenia;[RP]
I will lock this bc it is in fact an accurate translation. But the translation style is a little more "dynamic" and "readable" than that I have offered in mine. For example, the Biblicizing or Semitic tone of "iens substitit" is nicely reduced to the more European "landed", and the repetitious "substitit... remanisse... reliquias" is gathered into one verb "remains". Perhaps in future contributions, I will move in the direction of greater fluidity. [..] Ah, no, presume illiteracy on my part! The more literal the better, I think; my old Latin teacher used to say that fluidity often masked lack of understanding! NB: you have to save your dots and refresh to lock. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:32:05 AM | |
| 183 | und etliche sollen von der Naphta- Tünche des Schiffes Abschabsei mitnehmen zu Heilzwecken und als Schutzmittel zur Abwehr von Krankheiten. | et quosdam naphtham (bitumen) qua navis oblita erat, abradentes deportare in sanationem, atque ad averruncandos languores (morbos, dolores) quosdam amuleti ratione2). | and some, scraping off [pieces of] the bitumen with which the ship was covered, carry it away for [their] health, and some, for the purpose of an amulet to fend off fatigues (sicknesses, sorrows).
and some, soaking off some of the wash of naptha (bitumen) with which the ship was covered, use it for health and as a preventative/amulet to fend off illnesses. [RP] The sense is right-ish, but the first two clauses are not right. Can anyone help? [RP] I read: and some(people) knocking off (/chipping abradentes) the asphalt with which the ship was covered (/dirty) carry (it) along (deportare) as a medicine (lit. in accordance with a healer), and some (people) as a charm (lit for the logic of an amulet) for averting feebleness (diseases, pains) [JMB] alternatively... and some, scraping off [pieces] of the bitumen with which the ship was covered, take it away for [their] health, and some, as an amulet to fend off fatigues (sicknesses, sorrows). "ratione" translated "as" [..] Thank you all for this difficult one! Combined and put up top. rendering ratione as 'for the purpose' seems to work. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:39:20 AM | |
| 184 | Und jene seien abgereist, eingelangt zu Babelon; hätten nachgegraben und die Bücher hervorgezogen; und viele Städte gebaut, und Tempel den Göttern errichtet, und abermals Babelon erneuert. | Illos vero profectos Babelonem pervenisse, ac in Siparenorums) urbe fodisse, et extraxisse volumen *); multas quoque urbes condidisse, et templa diis exstruxisse, iterumque Babelonem renovasse (restituisse)." | But those who set out reached Babylon, and in Sippar they dug up and pulled out a book (s); also they founded many cities, and erected temples to the gods, and again renewed Babylon.
but that those who set out reached Babylon, excavated in a city of the Sipareni, and extracted a volume; and that they founded many cities besides, erected temples to the gods, and renewed (reestablished) Babylon." (dsv) also it can be 'the city of the Sipareni'. I think that we have called it Sipar previously. [JMB] I will harmonise this in the final edit, but Sippar for now, perhaps with footnote (lit.: city of the s...). I agree that it is 'the city' (Heliopolis) above. It is volumen 'volume' in the Latin but 'bucher' (books) in the German, so I will note this. Changed to incorporate all these and some quoque and iterum. [RP] Locked by [RP] on 19th July 2007 03:31:54 AM | |